Thanks for bringing all this to light. One thought…as freethinking as these ancient writers sounds, I seem to recall Ovid suffered a dire fate for his works on love. So the social tensions around notions of love are also ancient.
It's very true - or, at least, that's what Ovid tries to suggest in his later writings. Would you be interested in a piece on Ovid's exile?
And you're so right that love has always been a magnet for social tension. This period is such an interesting case study for that - Augustus makes the first serious attempt to legislate Roman sexual behaviour in 18/17 BC, so I think the question of how far people's romantic relationships should be subject to public scrutiny was at the forefront of people's minds. It's something I'm looking at in my academic work at the moment, so it could also be really fun to write about here, if you think it would be of interest?
(Sorry for the late reply, I had to force myself off Substack for the past two months to meet far less fun writing deadlines!)
Yikes! I've been married for 48 years and doing it all wrong! Wonderful essay, but the lovers' torments sound mostly a problem with being too self absorbed. But this is happening in a context where marriages were transactional and the poets were having-or perhaps wanting to have-affairs: set up as impermanent alliances.
I don't know, I think we can safely say you've got it right - I can think of very few elite Romans who made it to 48 years of marriage!
And I think you're right on both counts. This is absolutely an outlet outside of a marital system that was socio-economic rather than romantic. And I also think that very often these affairs are twisted (or even imagined from scratch) into a literary framework that allows the poets to explore their own, solipsistic emotional torment! I wonder how many of their lovers would have recognised their relationships on the page...
(Sorry for the late reply, I had to force myself off Substack for the past two months to meet far less fun writing deadlines!)
I’ve always been drawn to all conspiracy theories involving collusion between Catullus, Propertius, Tibullus, and Ovid. In this case, the evidence you have laid out is quite compelling.
I never bought the idea of love being cultural, at all. Just go to a non-western country for even a day. People are people.
Besides which romantic love makes perfect sense from the pov of natural selection. It is imprinting and pair-bonding. Raising a human child by yourself is difficult so having two people around made it easier. How do you keep two adults around? You make it super painful to split up and super enjoyable to stay together.
I've always tended towards think it's a bit of both! That there is some immutable, biological core of human experience - love, grief, joy, jealousy etc. And that cultures then develop different ways of understanding and expressing those experiences.
I think scholarship in the 20th century moved too far towards viewing everything as structural or socially-constructed, stripping out space for human nature, feeling, and irrationality - but I actually think things might have begun to rebalance slightly over the past few years!
(Sorry for the late reply, I had to force myself off Substack for the past two months to meet far less fun writing deadlines!)
For a brilliant translation of Ovid's Amores and the Ars Amatoria I'd definitely recommend Melville (it's part of the Oxford World Classics series). It's all translated into proper verse and I think Melville really captures Ovid's playful cynicism and rogue charm.
I'd also suggest having a look at some of the renaissance versions. Christopher Marlowe composed an immensely beautiful (if quite free) translation of the Amores. And a number of my other favourite poets of the period - Ben Johnson, John Dunne, and Andrew Marvell among them - composed renditions, though not direct translations, of the Augustan elegists. Marvell's 'To his Coy Mistress', Donne's 'To his Mistress Going to Bed', and Johnson's 'Song to Celia' spring to mind!
(Sorry for the late reply, I had to force myself off Substack for the past two months to meet far less fun writing deadlines!)
This is incredible, thank you! I’ve always found it fascinating and slightly disconcerting to think how the way we experience these most basic human emotions is so dependent on our socialization and our history. The tragic lover is probably the most common depiction of romance throughout history and down to our modern day. I feel like there’s some juicy psychoanalytical questions to examine there. Erotism: Death and Sensuality by Georges Bataille looks at some of these ideas as well!
I knew our ideas about gender, marriage, and sex mostly came from the Romans, but hadn't come across this specific aspect of their culture in my research. Thank you for sharing this.
Thanks for bringing all this to light. One thought…as freethinking as these ancient writers sounds, I seem to recall Ovid suffered a dire fate for his works on love. So the social tensions around notions of love are also ancient.
You’re a treasure. Thanks again for this.
It's very true - or, at least, that's what Ovid tries to suggest in his later writings. Would you be interested in a piece on Ovid's exile?
And you're so right that love has always been a magnet for social tension. This period is such an interesting case study for that - Augustus makes the first serious attempt to legislate Roman sexual behaviour in 18/17 BC, so I think the question of how far people's romantic relationships should be subject to public scrutiny was at the forefront of people's minds. It's something I'm looking at in my academic work at the moment, so it could also be really fun to write about here, if you think it would be of interest?
(Sorry for the late reply, I had to force myself off Substack for the past two months to meet far less fun writing deadlines!)
Yikes! I've been married for 48 years and doing it all wrong! Wonderful essay, but the lovers' torments sound mostly a problem with being too self absorbed. But this is happening in a context where marriages were transactional and the poets were having-or perhaps wanting to have-affairs: set up as impermanent alliances.
I don't know, I think we can safely say you've got it right - I can think of very few elite Romans who made it to 48 years of marriage!
And I think you're right on both counts. This is absolutely an outlet outside of a marital system that was socio-economic rather than romantic. And I also think that very often these affairs are twisted (or even imagined from scratch) into a literary framework that allows the poets to explore their own, solipsistic emotional torment! I wonder how many of their lovers would have recognised their relationships on the page...
(Sorry for the late reply, I had to force myself off Substack for the past two months to meet far less fun writing deadlines!)
I’ve always been drawn to all conspiracy theories involving collusion between Catullus, Propertius, Tibullus, and Ovid. In this case, the evidence you have laid out is quite compelling.
Ohhh what are the conspiracy theories! They sound very fun
O Honor, puto te probe scire quod loquor:
'Nec minus in uobis ueterum quoque fama poetarum / est, Properti, tua Cynthia saepe petita...' indeed!
I never bought the idea of love being cultural, at all. Just go to a non-western country for even a day. People are people.
Besides which romantic love makes perfect sense from the pov of natural selection. It is imprinting and pair-bonding. Raising a human child by yourself is difficult so having two people around made it easier. How do you keep two adults around? You make it super painful to split up and super enjoyable to stay together.
I've always tended towards think it's a bit of both! That there is some immutable, biological core of human experience - love, grief, joy, jealousy etc. And that cultures then develop different ways of understanding and expressing those experiences.
I think scholarship in the 20th century moved too far towards viewing everything as structural or socially-constructed, stripping out space for human nature, feeling, and irrationality - but I actually think things might have begun to rebalance slightly over the past few years!
(Sorry for the late reply, I had to force myself off Substack for the past two months to meet far less fun writing deadlines!)
What Ovid translations would you recommend?
For a brilliant translation of Ovid's Amores and the Ars Amatoria I'd definitely recommend Melville (it's part of the Oxford World Classics series). It's all translated into proper verse and I think Melville really captures Ovid's playful cynicism and rogue charm.
I'd also suggest having a look at some of the renaissance versions. Christopher Marlowe composed an immensely beautiful (if quite free) translation of the Amores. And a number of my other favourite poets of the period - Ben Johnson, John Dunne, and Andrew Marvell among them - composed renditions, though not direct translations, of the Augustan elegists. Marvell's 'To his Coy Mistress', Donne's 'To his Mistress Going to Bed', and Johnson's 'Song to Celia' spring to mind!
(Sorry for the late reply, I had to force myself off Substack for the past two months to meet far less fun writing deadlines!)
Super helpful, thank you
Those poems sound a lot like our Mexican rancheras.
Strangulation as I look onto their beautiful, panic-filled eyes?
Absolutely brilliant!!
This is incredible, thank you! I’ve always found it fascinating and slightly disconcerting to think how the way we experience these most basic human emotions is so dependent on our socialization and our history. The tragic lover is probably the most common depiction of romance throughout history and down to our modern day. I feel like there’s some juicy psychoanalytical questions to examine there. Erotism: Death and Sensuality by Georges Bataille looks at some of these ideas as well!
Wonderful essay. Next topic, the Marquis de Sade.
https://open.substack.com/pub/clementpaulus/p/the-recursive-self?r=5c1ys6&utm_medium=ios
This was a good read and at least in part, inspired an op-ed I released this AM. I hope you don’t mind if I share it here now:
https://thequillandmusket.substack.com/p/the-price-of-flesh-in-a-culture-without?r=4xypjp
Little titty grabbers!
I knew our ideas about gender, marriage, and sex mostly came from the Romans, but hadn't come across this specific aspect of their culture in my research. Thank you for sharing this.
poets famously have terrible relationship advice
This is such a fascinating read! Thank you so much for putting together this newsletter! I really enjoyed it