All of these dangers were recognized and discussed at some length during the deliberations in Philadelphia that resulted in the U.S. Constitution. Of course, the debate wasn’t only informed by the experiences of Greece and Rome but by later scholars and philosophers such as those of the Scottish Enlightenment (Smith, Hume), Locke and Montesquieu to name only some.
Perhaps it was the combination of a large landmass and a rather heterogeneous population that helped avoid the fate of earlier examples of democracy. Perhaps an independent judiciary and an amendment process helped. Maybe it was dumb luck. Maybe all of these dangers above and more.
Yet, whatever the reason, the U.S. democracy stands … even as Benjamin Franklin’s caution still hangs in the air. When asked what type of government was created in Philadelphia in 1787, “A republic, if you can keep it” was his reply. Popular government’s survival ultimately rests on the wisdom and commitment of the people.
This is such an interesting perspective, thank you! I wonder how much that Franklin quote was informed by theories like this vs by his experience of living through volatile times.
I agree completely with your final line - it’s concerning I think that the idea of communal ethics and public duty seems to have dropped completely out of the political discourse. There seems to be a strange hope that political institutions can thrive on their own virtues, almost independently of the people they govern?
An oligarchy will not advertise itself as such and a tyrant will wear the garbs of a just king. I don't think it is that obvious that the USA is still a Republic in practice when the parties are tools wielded by oligarchs.
Well, it was baked into the design, was it not? The main point of the republic was precisely to keep the people separate from the political apparatus. You come along and vote every 4 years, and then we, the "enlightened statesmen" take care of everything for you.
James Madison for one expressed his outright terror at the idea of letting any kind of more direct majority input take place.
Also, great image pick. I quite like that series by Thomas Cole.
Put your John Hancock right here with 49 others on the Declaration of Independence a few years earlier and 6 more along the way, written by Thomas Jefferson and congress, from tyranny of the King of England. The part about merciless Indian Savages is what was written in the declaration as well in the same thought who wrote Columbus discovered America. The irony in of itself is a Declaration of moral hypocrisy.
The Constitution is interesting in the sense of a Republic where the vote is of the people by the people. The freedom to be who you are, so long as you don’t infringe upon the rights of others.
The definition of public and private trust was always the right of the people. The idea of private trust was regulated in the monopoly defined in code and managed still in public trust.
Yet the idea of the King was never far back in the minds of the trusts and estates. Homesteads to colonize land was an exchange for missionaries to reach far. A lot of good people lived in peace and hard labor, while tyranny was a price paid for the arches and bells.
The ability to help always had a price and somehow Corporations obtained more rights than most people, and seems to have effectively replaced all forms of governance.
"The freedom to be who you are, so long as you don’t infringe upon the rights of others."
The irony being that the "logic" of Republicans and huge parts of the US public is exactly the opposite: denying rights of women and others concerning their own bodies while at the same time promoting a massive threat to everyone's lives through gun fanatism way beyond "personal safety" measures.
There is so much progress its not possible to list it all in a comment. Here's a starting point: public education, rights for non-property holders, Black Americans, women, the disabled, people of all sexual orientations, labor laws, social security, medicare, the 40 hour work week, etc. etc.
America is still far from the utopia that Jefferson, Paine, and others envisioned, but we have come a long way!
And how much of this progress actually exists or continues to exist?
Especially, but not exclusively, Republican-controlled states have made or are about to make huge turns backwards (women's rights/reproductive rights, Civil Rights laws, labor laws, social security/medicare)!
Corruption and despotism have never been so dominant, or unashamedly and openly displayed in US politics from top to bottom, as they are today. At least, not in recent memory or history. And the state of society is very likely to even degrade further, so...
Progress is not a given. It's not an automatism. And very clearly not. The last decade is more than evident in that regard.
And how much of this progress actually exists or continues to exist?
Especially, but not exclusively, Republican-controlled states have made or are about to make huge turns backwards (women's rights/reproductive rights, Civil Rights laws, labor laws, social security/medicare)!
Corruption and despotism have never been so dominant, or unashamedly and openly displayed in US politics from top to bottom, as they are today. At least, not in recent memory or history. And the state of society is very likely to even degrade further, so...
Progress is not a given. It's not an automatism. And very clearly not. The last decade is more than evident in that regard.
And how much of this progress actually exists or continues to exist?
Especially, but not exclusively, Republican-controlled states have made or are about to make huge turns backwards (women's rights/reproductive rights, Civil Rights laws, labor laws, social security/medicare)!
Corruption and despotism have never been so dominant, or unashamedly and openly displayed in US politics from top to bottom, as they are today. At least, not in recent memory or history. And the state of society is very likely to even degrade further, so...
Progress is not a given. It's not an automatism. And very clearly not. The last decade is more than evident in that regard.
Agree. Progress is not inevitable and backsliding is always possible. We're currently in the middle of a vicious cycle of corruption, cynicism, distortion, and vice. America has gone through that before and come out the other side. And we can do it again, if we don't forget who we are, what we've always stood for, and what is possible is well-reasoned, public-spirited leaders are selected. Nihilism from both ends of the political spectrum is winning.
Everything moves towards its end, the closer we get to ours, the louder the clock ticks, the less a sane man would allow himself to be deprived of happiness.
Fair question, Kaveh, but as Owlette says, Trump has never stopped lying about his defeat in the 2020 election, which he did lose, by every possible legitimate metric, as acknowledged by large numbers of Republican law-makers, election officials etc. It was a lie. He also incited the crowd who stormed the Capitol on January 6th 2020, urging them to fight (to 'stop the steal', the steal that was not, in fact, a steal at all) to try to prevent the lawful, democratic swearing in of the new president.
He is also on record, more recently, as saying that voters wouldn't have to go to the trouble of voting again after this election if he won it. I realise that nobody takes that much of what Trump says at face value - except perhaps his most ardent worshippers - but shouldn't we pay attention when the most powerful man in the world after Xi Jinping tells us we won't be voting hereafter.
Democracy isn't dead yet, and Trump won fair and square, but you must admit the prospects for the future of US democracy don't look great.
I’m sorry that you feel surrounded by “corrupt officials” and that you are so disconnected from reality.
To be sure it hurts to see that a party like the GOP has been hijacked by a hysteric moron like T and other conspiracists…especially for people like me who believe in conservative values..
It's interesting to compare the writings of Polybius to Aristotle, they are similar but still different, as Aristotle did not quite outline such a linear progression of system changes in his Politics, I prefer him to be honest, despite the obvious merits Polybius's work has.
Cheer up . We were never a democracy, we were a republic, then we became a bureaucratic oligarchy, now we’re going someplace … else.
You can take the below as Bedrock and that may be solace;
Federation.
The Eternal American Federation.
(Or at least recursive).
Every American political arrangement from the Iroquois to the Internet has been a Federation. Between those Bookends; The Albany Conference. The Articles of Confederation. The Federalist Republic of 1789. The Confederate States of America. Neither race nor The Founders explains the Iroquois or The Internet.
What we know is it keeps happening for 600 years at least. – the Iroquois Confederation at least that old (it still exists by the way, dead wampum lasts longer than dead parchment, perhaps that’s DC’s fate).
My own estimate is the rich lands with diverse riches compel different economic and political interests and that’s why Federations keep rising.
We also know our geography and geography doesn’t negotiate, the ultimate winner will be ocean to ocean.
Thank you so much for explaining Polybios. My favorite historian. Still very relevant after two millennia. Btw, I do t think decline is inevitable, any more than rise was. It’s always up to our choices.
All of these dangers were recognized and discussed at some length during the deliberations in Philadelphia that resulted in the U.S. Constitution. Of course, the debate wasn’t only informed by the experiences of Greece and Rome but by later scholars and philosophers such as those of the Scottish Enlightenment (Smith, Hume), Locke and Montesquieu to name only some.
Perhaps it was the combination of a large landmass and a rather heterogeneous population that helped avoid the fate of earlier examples of democracy. Perhaps an independent judiciary and an amendment process helped. Maybe it was dumb luck. Maybe all of these dangers above and more.
Yet, whatever the reason, the U.S. democracy stands … even as Benjamin Franklin’s caution still hangs in the air. When asked what type of government was created in Philadelphia in 1787, “A republic, if you can keep it” was his reply. Popular government’s survival ultimately rests on the wisdom and commitment of the people.
This is such an interesting perspective, thank you! I wonder how much that Franklin quote was informed by theories like this vs by his experience of living through volatile times.
I agree completely with your final line - it’s concerning I think that the idea of communal ethics and public duty seems to have dropped completely out of the political discourse. There seems to be a strange hope that political institutions can thrive on their own virtues, almost independently of the people they govern?
An oligarchy will not advertise itself as such and a tyrant will wear the garbs of a just king. I don't think it is that obvious that the USA is still a Republic in practice when the parties are tools wielded by oligarchs.
Well, it was baked into the design, was it not? The main point of the republic was precisely to keep the people separate from the political apparatus. You come along and vote every 4 years, and then we, the "enlightened statesmen" take care of everything for you.
James Madison for one expressed his outright terror at the idea of letting any kind of more direct majority input take place.
Also, great image pick. I quite like that series by Thomas Cole.
We are still a relatively new nation. Still time to degenerate into a monarchy.
Put your John Hancock right here with 49 others on the Declaration of Independence a few years earlier and 6 more along the way, written by Thomas Jefferson and congress, from tyranny of the King of England. The part about merciless Indian Savages is what was written in the declaration as well in the same thought who wrote Columbus discovered America. The irony in of itself is a Declaration of moral hypocrisy.
The Constitution is interesting in the sense of a Republic where the vote is of the people by the people. The freedom to be who you are, so long as you don’t infringe upon the rights of others.
The definition of public and private trust was always the right of the people. The idea of private trust was regulated in the monopoly defined in code and managed still in public trust.
Yet the idea of the King was never far back in the minds of the trusts and estates. Homesteads to colonize land was an exchange for missionaries to reach far. A lot of good people lived in peace and hard labor, while tyranny was a price paid for the arches and bells.
The ability to help always had a price and somehow Corporations obtained more rights than most people, and seems to have effectively replaced all forms of governance.
Good piece and thanks for sharing.
"The freedom to be who you are, so long as you don’t infringe upon the rights of others."
The irony being that the "logic" of Republicans and huge parts of the US public is exactly the opposite: denying rights of women and others concerning their own bodies while at the same time promoting a massive threat to everyone's lives through gun fanatism way beyond "personal safety" measures.
We still love the idea of progress in the absence of evidence to support it!
We do - it’s quite a heartening, if irrational, aspect of human nature I think
There is so much progress its not possible to list it all in a comment. Here's a starting point: public education, rights for non-property holders, Black Americans, women, the disabled, people of all sexual orientations, labor laws, social security, medicare, the 40 hour work week, etc. etc.
America is still far from the utopia that Jefferson, Paine, and others envisioned, but we have come a long way!
And how much of this progress actually exists or continues to exist?
Especially, but not exclusively, Republican-controlled states have made or are about to make huge turns backwards (women's rights/reproductive rights, Civil Rights laws, labor laws, social security/medicare)!
Corruption and despotism have never been so dominant, or unashamedly and openly displayed in US politics from top to bottom, as they are today. At least, not in recent memory or history. And the state of society is very likely to even degrade further, so...
Progress is not a given. It's not an automatism. And very clearly not. The last decade is more than evident in that regard.
And how much of this progress actually exists or continues to exist?
Especially, but not exclusively, Republican-controlled states have made or are about to make huge turns backwards (women's rights/reproductive rights, Civil Rights laws, labor laws, social security/medicare)!
Corruption and despotism have never been so dominant, or unashamedly and openly displayed in US politics from top to bottom, as they are today. At least, not in recent memory or history. And the state of society is very likely to even degrade further, so...
Progress is not a given. It's not an automatism. And very clearly not. The last decade is more than evident in that regard.
And how much of this progress actually exists or continues to exist?
Especially, but not exclusively, Republican-controlled states have made or are about to make huge turns backwards (women's rights/reproductive rights, Civil Rights laws, labor laws, social security/medicare)!
Corruption and despotism have never been so dominant, or unashamedly and openly displayed in US politics from top to bottom, as they are today. At least, not in recent memory or history. And the state of society is very likely to even degrade further, so...
Progress is not a given. It's not an automatism. And very clearly not. The last decade is more than evident in that regard.
Agree. Progress is not inevitable and backsliding is always possible. We're currently in the middle of a vicious cycle of corruption, cynicism, distortion, and vice. America has gone through that before and come out the other side. And we can do it again, if we don't forget who we are, what we've always stood for, and what is possible is well-reasoned, public-spirited leaders are selected. Nihilism from both ends of the political spectrum is winning.
There are a lot of patterns in history, one of them is that things change. With any luck maybe this pattern will change.
A cyclical view of things at least brings hope that better days are coming. Thanks for this amazing article!
Yes exactly! I for one am looking forward to a return to primordial chaos
Both succinct and oh so timely. Thanks Honor.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it.
Insightful and timely.
Everything moves towards its end, the closer we get to ours, the louder the clock ticks, the less a sane man would allow himself to be deprived of happiness.
Thankyou for elucidating ("swift shift") some of the history of the ancients. It does seem like the eternal return. All these many centuries later.
Why is it the death of democracy if they just elected a guy you don't like? That just sounds like democracy to me.
Democracy degenerates into mob-rule. It’s right there in the article mate.
Fair question, Kaveh, but as Owlette says, Trump has never stopped lying about his defeat in the 2020 election, which he did lose, by every possible legitimate metric, as acknowledged by large numbers of Republican law-makers, election officials etc. It was a lie. He also incited the crowd who stormed the Capitol on January 6th 2020, urging them to fight (to 'stop the steal', the steal that was not, in fact, a steal at all) to try to prevent the lawful, democratic swearing in of the new president.
He is also on record, more recently, as saying that voters wouldn't have to go to the trouble of voting again after this election if he won it. I realise that nobody takes that much of what Trump says at face value - except perhaps his most ardent worshippers - but shouldn't we pay attention when the most powerful man in the world after Xi Jinping tells us we won't be voting hereafter.
Democracy isn't dead yet, and Trump won fair and square, but you must admit the prospects for the future of US democracy don't look great.
It's the fact, that "this guy" proofs to be an authoritarian, who denied and tried to overturn the results of a free fair election!
This is not about sympathy or antipathy..
2020 was stolen, anyone with eyes to see the outrageously high Democrat totals compared with 2024 can see that lol
Every attempt to prove that the election was stolen has been refuted - by judges as well as Republican officials!
Why didn't Democrats "steel" this election (if this is so easy..)??
With your logic regarding different numbers, the 2016 election was stolen as well! Just compare Tr's numbers with Obama's !!
Refuted by corrupt officials, but not by the suspicious numbers themselves.
If they had nothing to hide, why did they usethe pandemic to keep Republican ballot scrutineers out of the counting rooms?
I’m sorry that you feel surrounded by “corrupt officials” and that you are so disconnected from reality.
To be sure it hurts to see that a party like the GOP has been hijacked by a hysteric moron like T and other conspiracists…especially for people like me who believe in conservative values..
Conservative values like transvestitism?
Short answer is yes
Professor of Law and Dean at Berkeley Law School’s new book, “No Democracy Lasts Forever” — knows his Polybius
It's interesting to compare the writings of Polybius to Aristotle, they are similar but still different, as Aristotle did not quite outline such a linear progression of system changes in his Politics, I prefer him to be honest, despite the obvious merits Polybius's work has.
I am swerving towards sympathy and cooperation as best practices! Could work!
It’s the meanies. It is not me.
Cheer up . We were never a democracy, we were a republic, then we became a bureaucratic oligarchy, now we’re going someplace … else.
You can take the below as Bedrock and that may be solace;
Federation.
The Eternal American Federation.
(Or at least recursive).
Every American political arrangement from the Iroquois to the Internet has been a Federation. Between those Bookends; The Albany Conference. The Articles of Confederation. The Federalist Republic of 1789. The Confederate States of America. Neither race nor The Founders explains the Iroquois or The Internet.
What we know is it keeps happening for 600 years at least. – the Iroquois Confederation at least that old (it still exists by the way, dead wampum lasts longer than dead parchment, perhaps that’s DC’s fate).
My own estimate is the rich lands with diverse riches compel different economic and political interests and that’s why Federations keep rising.
We also know our geography and geography doesn’t negotiate, the ultimate winner will be ocean to ocean.
Incompetents don’t win Wars.
Thank you so much for explaining Polybios. My favorite historian. Still very relevant after two millennia. Btw, I do t think decline is inevitable, any more than rise was. It’s always up to our choices.